Jill Biden

So let’s start. I had read that, back in 1972, during the campaign celebrations, when Joe Biden won his first election to the Senate, you visited the celebration. I wanted to know if you could give me just a feeling about what that campaign celebration felt like, how people viewed this young new senator-to-be, Joe Biden. What was the ambiance? …

… So that night, in 1972, when Joe won the election, all the college kids were so excited, because he was this new, young guy running for Senate. So a lot of us went to the Hotel Du Pont Ballroom. And it was packed, packed. And there was so much excitement in the air. And I can remember just, you know, looking around. And suddenly, I didn’t see Joe, but I saw this woman coming through the crowd, and I realized that it was Neilia, Joe’s wife. And so I walked up to her, and I shook her hand, and I said, “Congratulations on your win.” And she said, “Thank you very much.” And then that was it. I mean, that was our exchange. But—so then I think I left and went out to dinner.

The irony, though, is amazing.

There is a lot of irony. I truly—I agree with that.

… The other story, one of the other stories I had read was that before your marriage, I guess 1977, Jimmy and Frank [Joe Biden’s brothers] had dinner with you, where they told you that the family dream was always that Joe would eventually become president. … Were they doing it to kind of let you know what you were in for? Or what was that all about?

Well, Jimmy and Frankie took me out to dinner, because I think they wanted to let me know that the family plan was that Joe would someday be president. And so they were letting me in on this and kind of warning me that if I was going to marry him, that this was part of the plan. And I listened, and I was—it was kind of surreal. But I sort of brushed it off, because I figured, well, maybe, you know, maybe not. I mean, it just didn’t really faze me, because it just didn’t seem possible at that moment.

The other thing that’s interesting about that is that, what it also shows is that, even if Joe Biden had gone through the tragedies that he had gone through that it didn’t derail him from his goals, from looking forward to what was possible. What did that say about your husband at that point, that—that, even in ’77, that was something that the family was still looking forward to?

Well, you know, one of the things that really drew me to Joe was that I felt that he was really strong and resilient. And I knew that he would be such a great partner to go through life with, because of his—because of his character and his strength. And I thought, you know, I know with Joe Biden I could make it through the tough times and the good times.

… But I never knew—but I never realized how high the highs were going to be, and how low the lows were going to be as well.

Let me ask you an early question that I wasn’t going to ask you originally, but then I read Joey the other day, and I had never read that book.

It just came out. That’s why.

One of the things you talk about is his struggle with stuttering and the bullies that he had to deal with, and the attitude that, certainly when you’re a kid, is hard to take how people felt that he was stupid because of the fact that he had a stuttering problem. How did he talk about that with you? And when’s the first time you knew about it? And what was the effect on him? …

You know, I don’t remember when Joe first told me that he used to stutter. And, of course, I wasn’t there when he was a child. But it’s part of the family story, about how he struggled and how he overcame the stuttering. And of course his uncle stuttered very badly, and I knew his uncle. And so I saw that it, you know, maybe it was, I don’t know, part of the family, because his uncle stuttered so much.

Did he talk about, when he was a kid and the fact of how bullies would treat him, and how he dealt with it?

You know, Jim, I don’t—I don’t really remember us really talking about that. I don’t remember him telling me—you know, subsequently, he’s told me. But no, when I was dating him, I don’t ever remember him mentioning a stutter, or when we were, you know, newly married, I don’t remember that.

The interesting point I guess that I’m getting at here is that, when he was a kid, that he felt, if you go through things like that, we all go through something or other. He was underestimated. People didn’t understand how smart he was, how talented he was, because of this problem that he had. Was that, in fact, the case? And if so, how difficult is that for a kid to sort of—how it drove him, how it drove him to overcome it?

Well, you can see, because Joe was a stutterer, you can see his sense of perseverance. And he did tell me the things he used to try to do to overcome stuttering, you know, putting pebbles in his mouth and reciting poetry. But he keeps—he doesn’t give up. And he keeps going and going until he gets what he wants. And so I guess you could say that was true when he was a young boy and he stuttered. It was true when he asked me to marry him. He asked me five times. And so he just keeps going. He believes—he’s very persuasive, and I think that’s helped him in the Senate, because when he wants to get something done, when he sets his eyes on something, he gets it done.

And that’s true with the Violence Against Women Act. When Joe was in the Senate, he worked with both sides of the aisle. And he’ll just keep at it and talking to you until—until he can find compromise. And that’s one of his strengths.

One other thing, and then we’ll move more quickly through the history, but one of the things about the struggle with his story is that the story is that his mom—he writes about it—tells him that, you know, don’t feel sorry for yourself. This is up to you, and you’ve got to beat it. …

His mother was a major influence in his life. And she was—Jean Finnegan was a force to be reckoned with, and she had her kids’ backs 100%. And I think one of the reasons Joe has the confidence he does is because of his mother. And she stood up to anybody who went against her Joey. And that—that was all through life. That was all through life, that she—he always knew he could depend on her.

… Let’s skip up to the 1987 campaign. So 1987, he decides to run for president. Why is he running? What’s his motivation? What are his hopes? What are your thoughts about that idea back in ’87 to run for president?

Well, a lot of people—You know, Joe gives—I mean, he’s such an eloquent speaker, and he was giving such great speeches, and he was getting noticed. And a lot of people were coming to him and saying: “You have to run. You have to run.” And so he thought—“Well, Jill,” he said, “let’s just test the waters.” And so I said, “All right.” So we went out to Iowa, and we were going to New Hampshire. And we got further and further into it, and more people were joining our campaign, and more people were sending money, fundraisers.

And finally, it sort of just snowballed, and we were into it, really, before we even knew it. So people were attracted to Joe and attracted to the campaign. And a lot of people wanted to get onboard.

Of course the plagiarism claims that happened—so it causes big problems for the campaign. But how was it viewed? The thing I’m trying to get to here is the story that he writes about, where you had a conversation with him while this was going on.

Yes

… So how did you view it? How did he view it? And what were the results and the direction that was taken?

So pulling out of the 1987 presidential race was really devastating to Joe and to me and to our family. You know, one thing that the people of Delaware always felt was that Joe had just a strong character and a lot of integrity. And so when he was accused of plagiarism, we felt that, you know, his character was being attacked. And it sort of took us back, that the one thing that Joe prided himself on was his honesty and his integrity. And now it was being attacked. And so there was really a media frenzy once we went to Iowa, where he made the speech. And there was so much pressure.

And, at the same time, Justice Powell had resigned from the Supreme Court. And so Joe was chairman of the Judiciary Committee, and they would hold the hearings, or they were about to hold hearings. So that summer, I can remember, we were—he was traveling to Iowa, and then he was, you know, studying for the hearings. And then this all happened, and all blew up. And he really had a choice. He either had to do his duty on the Judiciary Committee, or he was going to—or run for president. And it was just impossible, it seemed at that time, to do both.

And so he pulled out and said, “You know, I—this is my job, and this is what the people of America and the state of Delaware expect me to do.” So I can remember so clearly getting out of the race. And I can remember the day, that morning, before he went into the hearing room, I was standing behind the doors with him, and he was talking to staff—Mark Gitenstein, and they were talking about, “We’ve got to do a good job on this.” And I said, “No, you have to win this,” because I felt that Joe needed to be vindicated, because I felt it was so unfair what happened to him, and that he had to pull out of the race, because it just seemed—it was through no fault of his own that the plagiarism occurred. 11New York Times: Biden Is Facing Growing Debate On His SpeechesYou know, he was reading a speech that someone had written for him. He didn’t realize that the lines were used. And I just felt it was so unfair.

Maybe another time, basically. That was the thought, yes?

Well, I didn’t think—you know, at that time, I didn’t think, “Oh, we’ll do it again.” I thought—I’m telling you, it was really scarring, I guess would be a good word.

… The other thing that comes after that, the hearings, of course, is the Thomas hearings of ’91, which were also hard on him. But it also pushed him to dramatically change the Judiciary Committee. He pushed forward an agenda which would change things dramatically in the Congress, as more women were coming in. Any thoughts about that period of time, and how hard it was, but also what good came out of it?

Joe believed Anita Hill, and then he voted against Clarence Thomas. And I think being in that room and seeing Anita Hill, you know, being questioned by all those senators, I think it was one of those moments when Joe thought, this can never happen again. And so he went out, and he campaigned for Carol Moseley Braun and for Dianne Feinstein. And he said: “You must come on the Judiciary Committee. We need women on this committee.”

And so he really created culture change. And, you know, then he went on to write the Violence Against Women Act. So he did create change. And to this day, you know, he’s continued the—the Violence Against Women Act on college campuses, and with It’s On Us, and had young men join the movement. And it’s really made a difference. You don’t know how many times I’ve been on the campaign and been on a rope line, and women have come up to me and said, “My sister would not be alive if your husband had not passed the Violence Against Women Act.” And that’s so true. People—women who have been abused know that Joe Biden is the one who changed things.

President Obama, or then-candidate Obama, chooses Joe Biden to be his vice president. Why does Joe decide to do it? What was your advice? What was his mom’s advice?

Well, it wasn’t—when President Obama asked Joe to be vice president, he really hesitated. He said, “I don’t know whether I really want to do this.” And Joe had always been his own boss, and I think he didn’t really know whether he could answer to somebody else. So he took a long time to think about it. And I was so excited. I said: “Joe, this is such a great moment in history. You know, Barack Obama is going to be our first Black president, and to have you by his side.” And that’s exactly what his—what his mother said to him as well. Like, “Joe, you got into the—into politics because of the civil rights movement, and now you’re going to pass up the opportunity to run with the first African American president?”

And so his mother—I was behind Joe running, I mean, pushing him to run. His mother was. And the kids said to me, “Mom, you have to talk Dad into running.” And I think we all did. So obviously we did, because he became vice president.

… He was very important for the administration in sort of going to different events in Black communities and white communities, in helping people get over tragedies. And one of them was the killings of two police officers in New York. And you guys went up, and he gave the eulogy for Officer [Rafael] Ramos. And then there’s the story of you guys going over to the Liu family, and the story of the famous hug. Tell me—tell me a little bit about that trip, why it was important to him, the fact that he has the empathy to sort of help people deal with those issues. …

So there were two police officers who were killed in New York. If you remember, the gunman came up, they were having their lunch in their car, and shot both of them. And so Joe was asked to give the eulogy of Officer Ramos. And so we went to New York. And Joe gave the eulogy. And the Liu family, the other officer who was shot, did not attend, because they had family coming in from China and because—so their funeral was going to be the next day.

So we came out of the church, and the family didn’t speak English at all, really. And Joe said: “Where is the Liu family? Why aren’t they here?” And it was explained to him. And he said, “But I want to—I want to offer my condolences to him as well, to them, to that family.” So we got in the car. We drove 45 minutes, and we went to the Liu family house, and I can remember walking up the stairs with the—with an interpreter, and the family was all crammed into this tiny kitchen.

And we went into the living room with the mother and his father and his wife. And we sat, and we talked to them. And we must have been in there, I don’t know, a good hour. And they wanted—his mom and dad wanted us to see the picture in his bedroom that was above their bed. It was a huge painting of the officer and his wife. And they had only been married a short time. And I can remember leaving. And then we went out on the sidewalk. And the father, who didn’t even speak English, just held onto Joe. And, I mean, he was so grateful that Joe had come to offer condolences to the family.

And then, as it happened, six months later, we lost our own son to cancer. And at the viewing, there were people waited in lines for hours, hours on end. And there was Mr. Liu and his wife. And they came to give us comfort. And there were—there really were no words spoken. I mean, he didn’t know English, but it was—it was just two men, really, who had gone through something horrible just offering comfort to one another. And it really meant so much to Joe and to me.

One of the other things about Joe Biden’s career is how important to him the Black community and Black voters have been—important to his own success as well. … I wanted to ask you — talk a little bit about Joe’s connection to that community, to the Black community, and why, how important that has been throughout his career.

So Joe ran for office, he got involved in politics, because of the civil rights movement. So you have to remember that, you know, 1968, the death of Martin Luther King, the riots that took place here in Wilmington, and he saw the dogs going after, you know, people on the streets. And I think it had a profound impact on Joe. And even when he was in high school, with the football team, he walked out of a restaurant when they wouldn’t serve a member of the team because he was Black.

And so a lot of these things in Joe’s childhood stuck with him. And so once he got elected, you know, it was—I think it was the Black community here in Delaware that really lifted him up and helped him to win the Senate seat. And then Joe traveled all around the country and campaigned for candidates and got involved. And I think it just sort of, I don’t know, snowballed, I guess, that he had a lot of respect. He gained a lot of respect for—for the things that he did for civil rights.

Let me ask you about Beau’s passing, if I can. One of the things that you write about is that Joe was comforted by the Kierkegaard quote that “Faith sees best—”

“—in the dark.”

And you had said that it seems to be written on his heart. Can you explain that? Can you describe that for our audience?

When Beau died, and even when he was sick, Joe really depended on his faith to get him through it—as did Beau, by the way. I mean, our family goes to church every Sunday. Mom-mom made sure that, you know, the whole family went to church. And so I think that Joe’s faith really got him through the tough times. When he lost Neilia and the baby, and then when he lost Beau, I think it was Joe’s faith that really let him pick himself up and move on with purpose.

Why is that important to understand in these days that we’re in these days, that that is such an important part of Joe Biden’s life?

Well, I think in these days, you know, with—with the pandemic, and with this—you know, the movement for racial equality, I think that Joe depends on his—on his faith to—it really informs his thinking and his belief that all men and women are equal, and in the eyes of God. And I think that’s what he fights so hard for.

And in this pandemic, as we all try to make our way through, I think that Joe understands certainly what it’s like when—because his father lost his job, and he had to move to Wilmington, Delaware, and leave the family back in Scranton. And then Joe’s dad couldn’t pay for the college that Joe wanted to go to. And certainly, because of the tragedy and the loss in Joe’s life, he understands. Look at how many Americans have lost someone that they’ve loved.

And so Joe understands that. And I think as president, people of this country will get someone who—get a president who understands their problems, feels empathy, and also will work hard to make things better, to move us into the light, into a brighter future.

2019, he sees this as his moment, finally. Why now? And why is it he—and you’ve already discussed this somewhat, but why is it he is the right choice for America in 2020, with what’s going on and with what he brings to bear, his background, his empathy? Why is he running in 2020?

… When we left office, we started our own foundation. And we worked on things like military families and education and cancer. And we had worked—we had continued that work. But I have to tell you, people started coming up to me, wherever I was, in the supermarket or on the street or in the drug store, and saying: “Joe has to run. Joe has to run.”

And, you know, it sort of got louder and louder. And we weren’t—Joe had not intended on running. But then, when he saw Charlottesville, when he saw people coming out of those fields with torches in hand, he just knew he could not sit by, you know, sit—sit on the sidelines, that he had to run, that he had to make a difference. When—when our president said, “There are good people on both sides,” and after all Joe had fought for, with civil rights and equality—I mean, Joe was all about bringing people together.

And that’s why he—he will make such an incredible president, because he will unite this country. He will heal this country. He will bring vision, and he will bring empathy. And that’s why Joe Biden is perfectly suited for this moment, to be our president.

One last question if I can. The Medal of Freedom… It seemed to a lot of people that this was probably, or this seemed like the end of a political career, really. But indeed, that was not to be. What stories do you have about that and sort of how special it was?

So Barack called—President Obama called me, and he said: “Jill, I want to give Joe the Medal of Freedom. But no one can know. Only you and I can know about it.” And he said, “I’m going to depend on you to get the family—think of an excuse for all the family to come to the White House.” So it was his brothers and his sisters and our children and grandchildren. And so I can remember waking up that morning, and I wanted so badly to say, “Joe, this is going to be one of the best days of your life.” But, of course, it was, you know, a secret.

So I got up. I went to school. I taught. I went straight to the White House, and Joe met me there. And he thought we were going to a ceremony on some other—for some other reason. And I can remember sitting next to Joe, and President Obama said, “Joe, I want to award you the Medal of Freedom.” And I can—Joe was just—he couldn’t believe it. It was such—you know, he was overcome with emotion.

And then he went up on the platform with President Obama, and President Obama put the medal around his neck. And it was such a touching moment, because I felt, as did, you know, President Obama, as did probably the whole country, that it was so well deserved.

… One of the things, we were reading his early speeches, and some of the things that he said in earlier days was the importance of the Kennedy presidency to him, that he wrote that the Kennedy speeches “rhymed” with my beliefs, and it affected him deeply. And I wanted to know, is the importance of the Kennedys—also Robert Kennedy and the assassination of Robert and Martin Luther King and John. It affected him greatly. And I wanted to see how much you thought that was important in his decision to go into politics, and why—what did he love about that era of time? …

Well, I think Bobby Kennedy was his political hero. And when—when Bobby was killed, I think it really affected Joe, because, you know, Joe comes from an Irish Catholic family, with everybody so close. And I think that did affect his desire to go into politics. And, of course, you know, Joe’s—I mean, the Irishness of it. Joe—I think Joe just felt, I don’t know, enveloped by it, I guess. Jim, you have to remember, I wasn’t around during the time that Joe got into politics, so—but I’ve heard him talk about it afterwards.

And he and—he and Teddy, Joe and Teddy had a really wonderful friendship. And when Joe was sick—when Joe came out of the hospital after his aneurism, Teddy Kennedy insisted—I was keeping everybody away. But Teddy said: “No, I’m coming. I’m coming up to see him.” And, of course Joe remains good friends with Ethel Kennedy and many of the Kennedy family.

And then when Teddy got sick, he had the same cancer as Beau. And so, you know, Joe was very close, talking, just as—as Ted had called Joe and helped him through his illness, Joe called Teddy, not knowing, of course, that you know, Beau would later die of the same cancer.